And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. Yeah. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. . If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). But its still the first movie. So at an early age, I think about around age three. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. I dont know if I would. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. No, it doesnt. Okay. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Sure. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. . He had cancer and heart disease. Protestants disagree. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. Trent mentioned about dying once. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. So thats also a bad argument. H. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. Well, a lot to cover here. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. Type it in. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. It is fitting, therefore its true. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. So its not saying that he died. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. What am I to do with this? Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. He offered them in the debate. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? Yeah. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Thats just how debates work. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. Hallo.com/mattfred. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. So lets take a look at them. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Thats not true. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Book now for free with CMG Booking. Give me a second here. Paul offers, he says in First Corinthians 7:5 through seven, Do not refuse one another, except by agreement for a season, to devote yourselves to prayer so that youre not tempted by lack of self control. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. It doesnt even imply that. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Nice to have you. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Thanks for being a supporter mate. And Steve has not ruled that out. Okay. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Okay. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. . We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. You mean the son of John? Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. 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