Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. I think Velour was confused by a post I put on my Daisy blog. The guy is not repentant until he is caught. That is an important element here. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. See Matt 23:4, not a light matter.False teachings on grace and repentance.Defrocked for abusing sheep and misusing funds.Long history of contumacy, pugnacious, divisive.All publicly, before many witnesses, with readily available documentation.Leaving an email address at Ashley Madison is the FINAL step after listing all the kinds of hookups you want and all the perversions you are into. As long as he stays de-frocked and out of his victims' lives. It is complex. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Of course not. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? Heres where we seem to fundamentally agree: After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. THEN, the problem grows even larger. I believe some people are born with a tendency towards addictive behavior and that is why I believe in psychiatric counseling for these tendencies. I had a normal meal and he had no food, but many drinks and remained at the restaurant (drinking) after I left. As flawed and controlling and crazy-making as that church might have been, at least most of the people there didnt strike me as malicious. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. But please dont attach my name to it and say that Im ratifying it. Those two do not go together. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Velour wrote: Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? 2. I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Please stop. I think Annie found sanctuary in the best sense of the word. Here is a lovely article by a Christian recovering alcoholic Heather about her journey as a Christian and an alcoholic. There are some people who can con their way into whatever position they want, even in a denomination that has a superstructure. 30 years ago, a minister in my then-denomination, one with a national/regional/local superstructure, had an affair with a counslee, and embezzled some money. Sigh. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. Oh, excellent, Nancy2. And som. But Im going to respond a little further. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. But sexual problems are a common problem in alcoholics men and women alike and its covered in treatment programs and post-treatment programs. As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Hi Julie Anne, A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. As I quoted up the thread to Daisy, I have never said that R.C. From 1 Cor. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. Open Discussion Page, I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. I mentioned in a post on there that your blog (among a few other ones Ive seen) either ban the use of the word or topic of Codependency, or make the incorrect claim that it is victim blaming.. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Julie Anne wrote: Robert Sproul Obituary . JA, I addressed that in a blog post on my Miss Daisy Blog some time ago (that my posts at Barbaras blog were censored for mentioning codependency. 4. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. I doubt I will. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. So let me start. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). We came out of one of those churches. Youve been hoodwinked. As such, faithful Instructions for Christ followers are provided should these unfortunate events occurs providing correction and certain training in righteous, that the body Christ followers would be built up properly unto the unity of the faith, unto to the glory of God Himself! I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. and me. Its very revealing. an invitation to share his/her story. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. Haha. RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. 2. RC Sr should have called his son to repentance and to make restitution to all the families hed abused. came to pick me up in his car. I am a choco-holic. Every case is different. Lea wrote: Why? and fails to get the help he needs . An inexpressible blessing. This is a disease, not a moral failure. Clearly. where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. 3. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] She was saying he should be put out. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. So its simply not true that Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant. Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. And if it is true what you all say about people looking up to preachers, then right up at the top of people who need their jobs taken away is the drunk preacher. If that wasnt bad enough, look who wrote the books foreword: Tullian Tchividjian Coral Ridge Presbyterian Churchs ousted pastor who was caught in serial clergy sexual misconduct, and who has never repented to the victims he harmed! As a matter of fact, when a denomination refuses to ordain a particular person, that person can go start his own *denomination* and set himself up as its bishop and be quite successful at so doing. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. It was commonplace at those church parties that minor children were served alcoholic beverages, including drinks spiked with Everclear (190 proof grain alcohol). Is there still a scar? Our clergy led by example, embracing her and letting her have the full dignity of worship and service. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. Unbelievable. not even to eat with such a one.. 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